Marriage Equality

I have written about Marriage Equality many times. Until this moment, I had yet to post anything on my personal blog. Why? Oh, fear of rejection. Fear of what is to come. Fear of not really knowing where I stand when it comes to "protecting the traditional family." My favorite great uncle was gay and one of the very early cases of AIDS. He never ceased to be wonderful, handsome and dedicated to his family. AIDS took his life too soon and his sacrifice taught me that he just wanted to live and loved.

Anyway- we have heard it all. How gay marriage is going to bring down and deteriorate our world, destroy religion and faith in God. However, I personally have gay family members, friends and others in my community who are no different than I am. They my people, too. I cannot judge them for what they choose to do just as I hope they will not judge me for my actions. I firmly believe we are created in the image of God. I refuse to condemn anyone for living authentically. I believe they are my brothers and sisters and I love them. I welcome them. There is a place for them. In fact, I personally dislike saying "them" because I believe it should be said "us." We are all imperfect creatures with different trials. Our struggle is a human struggle and we should bear one another's burdens. That is what community is all about.

Our current community has not been kind towards this new idea of marriage equality. Once again, we find ourselves behind the times. Why? I think we let religious zealots get in the way of making better community-driven decisions. Persecution has taken different forms and no one has come out unscathed. However, this current persecution is sickening and wrong. The question on the table is asking whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. For those of you who preach from the Constitution as if it were the bible then you cannot deny that it entails EQUALITY FOR ALL UNDER THE LAW. Now many of us believe the Constitution was inspired by God meaning that God believes every man (woman and child) deserve equal rights. Now who determines equal rights? The masses? Religious affiliations? Churches themselves? There is a clause that reminds everyone of separation of church and state. I believe that this is an intricate and important part people often dismiss. It's one of the most important parts because it demands for a separation in order to keep certain religions from controlling the entire country. I firmly believe in this because it allows for me to worship freely.

So, now what? You decide. You get to make the right choice. One day your children will grow up and hear about this piece of history. They will ask you what side you were on. I want to look into the eyes of my son and share with him that I made a very specific choice with the hope that our country would move forward. I want him to know that even though I stepped outside of the norm and disappointed many people, I never changed my mind or backed down. Whether or not things change in the future, at least I will know I fought for what I believed to be just and true.

I feel I will be condemn for expressing this. I have never actually said I go one way or the other but time is of the essence. I believe that one day we can give our children a better world, filled with less war and more love. The world is a step closer to the real truth. Many are fighting the good fight. Many are bringing their thoughts to the table. Now is the time to figure out what we stand for and why. Now is the time that we stop judging others who live outside of our bubble. I choose to love. I choose to honor. I choose to allow others to use their agency as they wish and I am happy for them. This life is not easy. Christ died so we could live again. He didn't just die for the nice, righteous people. He died for everyone. He loves everyone. He will not discriminate based on gender attractions, race, etc. I know God and Christ are bigger than that. We are fallible humans, but isn't it time we stopped using that excuse?  I can't help but think of a time when my brothers and my sons could not have held the priesthood. I think of how my family would have had to sit on the back of the bus. I think of how certain people in my family were treated better because of their lighter skin. It's difficult to grow up with the knowledge that you're different and bad. I lived that. I fight every day for my child not experience this because I want him to be proud of who he is. He has more than four races coursing through his veins and I would hope that prejudice will subside once he is older. I will not tolerate discrimination of any kind in my household. I will teach my son the value of differences among others and in doing so, hope to stomp out previous discrimination the world might try to impose on him.

To live and let live is not a sin in my book. Some may say it is my place to tell others what to believe. For once, I will not apologize for my beliefs. I will stand by them. Regardless of the outcome, I can stand with a clear conscience that I shared and that I tried to stand for something good.

Marriage will not be marriage until everyone is allowed to partake in this ordinance. I hope marriage equality will be here to stay, forever.

Comments

Rachel said…
What you are saying goes against the teachings of the church. I love my gay brothers and sisters too! But that doesn't mean that they are above the law and should be able to marry. Marriage is institutionalized by God and to allow this to happen would be to blasphemy. I'm sad to read that you too have aligned yourself such. Imagine what will come next? They will be teaching homosexual relationships in schools, that gays are okay, then they will want to be married in our TEMPLES. I can still love them but not accept their way of life. They already get civil unions. What more do they want? Why are you giving in to them? If you align yourself with this then you are denying church doctrine. You are denying God and you are denying TRUTH. I love you Rubs, I really do. But I'm sad for you.
OhGeeIt'sBri said…
Rachel, can you speak more about what the Mormon church teaches about marriage? I'm not Mormon, but I would love to know the foundation of your argument.
Rachel said…
@OhGeeIt'sBri: I would love to! Back in the 90's our church issued out The family: A Proclamation to the World, where it shares that we believe marriage is between a man and a woman. "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity purposes." It also states that both male and femal are created in God's image. Then it goes on to explain that "We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."

So that pretty much sums up what my church (and ruby's church) believes when it comes to marriage. It is the most sacred of covenants and it is solely between men and women. Of course, we also are taught to love our neighbors and that includes our gay brothers and sisters.

OhGeeIt'sBri said…
Rachel, please feel free to respond to me. I have very serious questions about a lot of the claims you have made in this post, so I would like to dissect it and ask a few questions.

Rachel said...
What you are saying goes against the teachings of the church. *Rachel, I understand your reference to church related materials but I would love to know what the church has to say about the infusion of Mormonism into the US Legal System and recipients of legal benefits by the US government...that book must be A LOT more specific than I thought*

I love my gay brothers and sisters too! *Do you? Like really, do you LOVE them or merely tolerate them?*

But that doesn't mean that they are above the law and should be able to marry. *Exactly, I love black people and I'm still wondering why they thought they were above Jim Crow's Laws and I love women but I don't know why they think they deserve equal payment for equal work...entitlements I guess?*

Marriage is institutionalized by God and to allow this to happen would be to blasphemy. *NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE is fighting for religious institutions to defend/recognize/honor same sex marriages, the fight is for EQUAL rights under they eyes of the LAW. This seems to be where most people are getting hung up. It's fine if your Church wants to restrict the definition of marriage to one Christian man and one Christian woman (though as a member of the LDS, I'd be veeeeeeerrrrrrrryyyy careful calling someone out for not wanting to follow traditional marriage norms, that might come back to bite you on the arse)*
OhGeeIt'sBri said…
I'm sad to read that you too have aligned yourself such. *I'm sure the feeling is mutual*

Imagine what will come next? *First come loves, then comes marriage, then comes kids being adopted into loving homes instead of being institutionalized in a notoriously flawed system...or baby in the baby carriage, whichever version of the childhood rhyme you want to use will work here*

They will be teaching homosexual relationships in schools *what exactly is TEACHING homosexual relationships in school? Did they teach you heterosexual relationships in school? In which case, what school did you go to? Because, ironically, teaching that would go against a lot of religious beliefs. BTW sex ed is not the same as heterosexual activity promotion, it's merely biological systems of reproduction and puberty for dummies*,

that gays are okay, *I thought you loved them, now they're not even OK?...There's just no pleasing some people....*

then they will want to be married in our TEMPLES. *Do you shop in stores that are anti-mormon? No. Why do you think that people would want to join a system of beliefs and life choices that specifically denies them credibility and true happiness? If the LGBT community wanted to be systematically isolated, they wouldn't be fighting for the rights that heterosexual Americans (christian or not) freely enjoy*

I can still love them but not accept their way of life. *The word for that is TOLERATE not love. You can't truly love someone and not accept them. That is a misconception that a lot of religious people say to hide the conflictions they feel in their heart whilst simultaneously trying to make sense of contradictory doctrines.*

They already get civil unions. What more do they want? *EQUAL RIGHTS!!!!!!*
OhGeeIt'sBri said…
Why are you giving in to them? *RUBY DE SANTIAGO! YOU DID NOT TELL ME THE GAYS WERE DIRECTLY PRESSURING YOU TO GIVE IN TO THEM!? This is already out of control. What's next??? Soon, they will be coming to our doors on bikes all dressed up, handing out free documents and inviting us into their club? No ma'am not in my neighborhood!*

If you align yourself with this then you are denying church doctrine. *Align with what? That all US Citizens who are committed to loving each other should be able to freely enjoy the same rights as other American's doing the same thing?*

You are denying God and you are denying TRUTH. *Is there a specific part of the bible where God (or Jesus) says that truly loving our brothers and sisters and accepting them at face value is denying truth? I'm sure there is, I just honestly want to know why you chose this specific point to make in closing your argument.

I love you Rubs, I really do. But I'm sad for you. *Again, I'm sure the feeling is mutual*

Again, this is not meant to attack, these are genuine questions (with a little snark, of course :P) that I have always wanted to ask when I see posts as blatantly stated as yours was Rachel. All comments are welcomed.
OhGeeIt'sBri said…

P.S. My boyfriend and I are both non-religious. Will Ruby be denying God and Truth by attending our marriage ceremony? Do you think that my end game is a secret hidden agenda to try to one day have my non-religious offspring GET MARRIED in a mormon temple? As a black person, a lot of Mormon perks were denied to my people until 1978. *Ehem* so JUST LIKE THE GAYS I am in no real rush to try to jump into a system that just recently recognized me as an actual human being deserving of fair treatment. I just wish that the very religious realized how VERY LITTLE religion and subsidiaries thereof are actually though about in the secular realm. It’s really only in times like these, when rights are being denied, that we make the time to even think about what y’all are saying. Honestly. For the most part, we really just want everyone to do what makes them happy (within the law). Hope this helps clear up some of the other side’s views.
Rachel said…
"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed"
Rachel said…
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

OhGeeIt'sBri said…
"Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation" - So long as that adaptation doesn't involve falling in love with someone with the same private parts...got it...

"We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." - We call upon officers of government to promote these measures. Do you think you would take issue in officers of government promoting principles promoted in the Quran or Torah if they conflicted with your personal convictions? Oh you would, well now you know how that feels. So that we're clear: only in the one mother one father a few kids kind of unit is a family an acceptible measure of the stability of soceity? No derevation, no exceptions, it's that way or the highway. That is your position, correct?
Rachel said…
BECAUSE my last comment was deleted here it is again rephrased this time: I share this because that is how I feel and that is what I have been taught. First and foremost, I wish you the best in your marriage and I know Ruby will be there, front row and center. Ruby is kind, that doesn't mean she is right. We have had a long friendship and disagree politically because she is a liberal and I am not. *She knows this* It's hard to answer many of your questions because you are so sarcastic, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Here's the deal, I'm going to stand up for something that I believe to be true. Just like you are.
In referencing Blacks in our church: It was divine inspiration that told our leaders to not allow it. It doesn't mean that the men were racists, they were just men of their time. Was it wrong? Yes. But you can't compare those civil rights with gay rights. Although our system may be flawed, it is the only one we have. Allowing gays to marry will be detrimental to the survival of this country. You believe however you want but don't get all snarky on me just because I believe differently from you.

OhGeeIt'sBri said…
In referencing Blacks in our church: It was divine inspiration that told our leaders to not allow it. It doesn't mean that the men were racists, they were just men of their time. Was it wrong? Yes.
*Rachel, I think you and I both know that you are intelligent enough to decipher sarcasm from honest questions so please do not use that crutch as an excuse to avoid answering the tough questions. If you would like, I will ask them more directly, I just thought the sarcasm would soften the punches. You can't be serious about the racism thing, though. Do you know what racism means (a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race)? Definitively, what you just described is it. MEN OF THEIR TIME??????? you have GOT to be kidding me...

But you can't compare those civil rights with gay rights. *gay rights are civil rights. Tell me how they are different and I will stop defending their civil (of or relating to the state or its citizenry) rights.*

Although our system may be flawed, it is the only one we have. Allowing gays to marry will be detrimental to the survival of this country. *Just like those civil unions, right? What exactly is it that you honestly think that gay people will want to do once they have equal rights? How do you think that every American citizen feeling whole in the eyes of the law is really going to affect the economic longevity of this country. As a white person, do you feel less free now that black people are not slaves? It's really the same argument.
Rachel said…
I just mean, those men weren't evil. They were just products of their environment... I think they were wrong. If that means anything. I guess I see marriage as a religious institution which then government should not have a part of. It's something so sacred and beautiful.
I know there are great gay people throughout the country. My heart hurts for them. It's not that I'm anti gays, it's that I am pro man+woman marriage. No offense to them or anyone. I think I'm going to gracefully bow out of this one but it's not because I have nothing to say. It is because you will use anything I say against me.
Ruby said…
First, I want to thank y'all for reading my blog. Second, I'd like to say that Rachel has expressed most of our beliefs by quoting almost the entire proclamation to the world. Third, I love Brianna and can't wait to attend her wedding in the future (bridesmaid, right??).
Posting this was hard because I know many people who believe like you *Rachel. However, I couldn't sit idly anymore. I believe children deserve families that love them. I believe in a JUST GOD who loves everyone (I said that in my post). He literally loves everyone. Gays, straights, short, fat, skinny, etc. This equality of marriage is not going to destroy the country. **Please look at Europe** I think like Rachel said in reference to "men of their time..." Well people today are people of their time. It doesn't mean that you can prevent two people from being together, simply because it isn't in accordance to the religious law. Slavery is in the bible. Sex ed is just awkward and I wasn't ever taught about heterosexual sex (thanks mom for that lesson). I think it comes down to equality before the law. In FACT IT IS EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW. Whether I agree or not shouldn't matter. What matters is that every single individual in this country is treated as an equal.
I would like to think I'm a representative to Christ. I'm working on it every day. I seek out a loving God. My conservative counterparts might think otherwise of me but I still hold a temple recommend. I still try to stand for truth and righteousness and I love my fellow country men and women so much. We are HERE TO LEARN TO LOVE and DO unto others as we would like them to do unto US.
Ruby said…
ALSO- I think people forget the struggle with Civil Rights. They forget that people like me (and Bri) were not allowed on trains, buses, voting, etc. THAT IS PAINFUL. I love this country but to this day it hurts me to know that this great country did that. It was wrong!!! It pains me to know that a man I dearly liked couldn't be with me because of my ethnicity. THIS IS STILL happening and the Civil Rights movement took place over 40 years ago!! You would think we wouldn't face prejudice of this sort. However, my son will know that I took a stand. My son will know that I stood for something and didn't waiver. He will learn to seek out God and to pray to Him just as I did. It doesn't make me a freaking democrat or a loser liberal. IT MAKES ME A HUMANIST because I have hope in the human race. I am not giving up on us! by small and simple things will greater things come to pass... or something like that, right? Well now is the time. Stand for something BUT know WHY you stand for something. Don't quote an entire page. Open up your heart and if you don't know why you believe in something, research, ponder, and pray. That's what I have been doing. I feel good about this. I feel it is right.
annie said…
Ruby, I love you.

I just want to comment on this because although Rachel has left, I know you have a number of friends who believe the same way (as do I) and I think it's important to distinguish between what she said, and the facts of the matter. I know I can't change someone's opinion about these kinds of issues if they won't listen to reason, but we have to try, right?

As Brianna (Hi! Nice to meet you!) has stated, "gay rights" are not a thing. Gay rights are civil rights, and equal rights are the issue at hand, because it is EQUAL rights for all. Not equal rights for people who only want to have sex with the opposite sex. Gay people do not feel they are ABOVE the law -- I can't even explain how angry that phrase made me. They are not asking for anything ABOVE AND BEYOND the same rights that are given to heterosexual couples. They want to get married. They want to be able to see their partner in the hospital if something were to happen to them, file their taxes jointly, legally be allowed to call someone their husband or wife. Nothing crazy. They don't even want to get married in your TEMPLES. If they do, you can say no. That's a private institution, you reserve the right to refuse service, just like McDonald's.

"Allowing gays to marry will be detrimental to the survival of this country." This makes me want to throw up. I just can't fathom how someone can be so blinded that they believe this to be true.

And the bit about when the church (and America) didn't allow black people such luxuries as voting, marrying and owning land. Saying they were "Men of their time" might be accurate, but then to go on and say they were wrong and still hold on to the idea that you are right ABOUT THE EXACT SAME ISSUE is just not logical. And then to go on and say that the system has flaws but it's the only system you have makes no sense. Fix the flaws. Are you so blindly following that you just accept problems?

I don't mean to offend, but it's hard to do when I feel so angered by people who feel the need to deprive other human beings of rights they so freely enjoy.
Anonymous said…
Equal rights:
every man can be married to one woman, provided that none of them are already married.
every woman can be married to one man, provided that none of them are already married.
no one can marry or be married if they are deemed mentally unfit by a court official.
--
if no man (gay, straight, or other) can be married to a man and no woman (gay, straight, or other) can be married to a woman, then no gay man, straight man, or other man holds a right the other doesn't....

the delicate way in which u address this with such care is not wasted, but I think we can drop the rhetoric-this is not a equal rights issue.

Whether the government should allow exactly equal civil protections to any 2 non-related (for now) consenting adults is the issue. I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't. In fact, I think the government should be making it more difficult to leave these sort of contracts for a new one. The government already allows things your faith considers sin (divorce, sex outside of marriage, systematic rape/abuse of women in armed forces, and I'm guessing abortion.) Why draw the line here at 2 adult males or 2 adult females marrying? There is no good or bad or right or wrong. There's only gray, right? Oh, and feelings.
Anonymous said…
You talk about Jesus. I'm both baffled and impressed by your ability to impose your *he loves evvveeerryyonnne and has fuzzy good feelings and thus there is no right or wrong* logic on him. How can you sincerely and honestly rationalize your beliefs through this man. I would argue that it cannot be done if you're readIng your Bible where homosexuality is regarded as sin even during/after Jesus' ministry in the New Testament along with other things: gossip, slander, adultery. I'm sure your nonreligious friend OhGeeIt'sBri enjoys your casual disregard for things taught in your faith in favor of going with your feelings. I'm sure that's a big part of why you women can share so much love and how she manages to respect you despite your faith. Why even claim a faith? Why do you need one anyway? Feelings tell you all you need to know, right Ruby?. Not some old book right? You certainly dont need guidance from an old racist(nonracist?) who was a "product of his time" or from a polytheist (your faith's founder) trying to reconcile his 'divine revelations" with a monotheistic christianity.

Ruby, let me ask you to consider something. Consider whether your feelings are trustworthy. Is that your measuring stick. If we want to figure out if something is right or wrong, we consult our feelings? and then throw Jesus in for good measure? Is that how you will raise your children? "Hold to the timeless truths of your feelings, dear little ones!" Feelings are subjective. They change. They don't create facts or help us discover truths. Remember how you answer this question.

And view your response thru this lens:The next fuel for the fire of fight in the states may stem from pedophilia or bestiality or nerds wanting to marry robots...after the academic types don't find any scientific reason why society should abhor these things, of course. It must be nice to know you can turn to your feelings on these issues. and 160 years from now when your greatgrandchildren are in a society where things are 'just different now' and all the old folks wanting to hold onto those pesky 'traditional things' (like only copulating with adult humans) aren't there to encourage them in a manner other than: go with your feelings. (Which will undoubtedly be influenced by the media and bleeding heart stories that will convince most to side with those being treated 'unequally')
Anonymous said…
"Christ died so we could live again. He didn't just die for the nice righteous people....... I think God and Christ are bigger than that." 'Christ died so we could live again.' What a cliche. What does it mean tho? All hell may now break loose because Christ rose? I doubt that. It is a free gift for everyone right? and accepting that gift, that covers the penalty of all sin, grants righteousness in the sight of God the Father, right? And so all your sin is forgiven. Do you believe there is sin anymore? Or is that judging?

Your moral authority: feelings. No need to cover it up with a supposed faith.

And for it's worth, the "straights" have damaged marriage & God's kingdom more than the "gays." And legal rights for grown people wanting to be be together forever can't be too much for a supposedly all-powerful God.

I challenge you to examine your faith. I challenge you to reach the conclusion of same-sex marriage needing to be legal without the easiness of "Jesus Christ gives us freedom and I can't judge."
OhGeeIt'sBri said…
Hi Annie! Nice to meet you! I love when people 'annonymous'ly post questions and pose accusations. Just in case you ARE watching this post, annonymous:

"I'm sure your nonreligious friend OhGeeIt'sBri enjoys your casual disregard for things taught in your faith in favor of going with your feelings" **It's easy to accept Ruby at face value because I do not have the fear of any incorporeal being looming an eternity of damnation over my head. I don't enjoy her casual disregard for things taught in her faith, mostly because I am not familiar enough with her faith to know when she is casually disregarding it. I listen to Ruby's musings and offer my opinion when it is necessitated. I try my very best not to judge her (or anyone for that matter).

"Ruby, let me ask you to consider something. Consider whether your feelings are trustworthy. *Isn't it safe to say that most sane people trust their feelings and instincts. Why are you so quick to suppose that her 'feelings' were not directly tied to her own meditation and prayer? Is that your measuring stick. If we want to figure out if something is right or wrong, we consult our feelings? *She never said this was how she made most of her major life decisions, she expressed the feelings she has had and has come to peace with* and then throw Jesus in for good measure? *Again, how do you know Jesus wasn't the basis for her decision? What has she said that directly went against the teachings of Christ?* Is that how you will raise your children? "Hold to the timeless truths of your feelings, dear little ones!" Feelings are subjective. They change. They don't create facts or help us discover truths. Remember how you answer this question." You talk about feelings as if they are totally un-measurable and unreliable in any decision based situation. Feelings help us to survive by alerting us to threats, they promote emotional attachment and social interaction, feelings support growth, feelings connect us with all living beings, feelings are continually refined by our consciousness, etc. The thing that I found most compelling is that your FAITH is comprised of feelings. There are no facts or tangible means of proof to support most religious claims, inducing blind faith as the both the calling card and the victory flag in most religious settings. It's hard for me to easily accept that you don't take 'feelings' seriously when it comes to equal marital rights for consenting adults but it's totes legit to trust your feelings when it comes to belief in an invisible being in outer space that will determine the life decisions of you and those around you. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it's a bit hypocritical for calling Ruby out using that argument.

"The next fuel for the fire of fight in the states may stem from pedophilia or bestiality or nerds wanting to marry robots" **Why do so many people make this argument? How are two adults consenting to a relationship automatically the slippery slope to people accepting kiddy-rape or trying to have sex with a parokeet? It's not the same thing, it's not a slippery slope, and please stop drawing those comparisons. Gay people are not felons or animals and to compare them, even loosely, is not fair.** I really do understand the point that you were trying to make. The delivery and examples we're a bit much, but the point was clear at least.
Ruby said…
Anonymous- I really have no idea what you're trying to get at. Except you do have a condescending tone about my religion and my feelings, both of which are very important to me. I believe in Jesus and I strive every day to be a better person, to love those around me, and to show compassion for everyone. You encouraged me to look at the issue without religion (I think that's what you meant anyway) and I have. RELIGION ASIDE, this is AN EQUALITY ISSUE. Meaning, marriage should be equal among gay, straight, black, white, etc. You can definitely take the entire religion side of my argument out and still see that equality is marriage is just that. Of course I will raise my children to go off their feelings. I will raise them to be strong in their convictions and I will teach them how to respect others who believe differently from them. I don't know where you fall on the political or religious lines and frankly I'm baffled by your entire rhetoric. However, I will say that my church was founded by a man named Joseph Smith who believed in God the Eternal Father. You make claims about my religion that are untrue. They're not anti-divorce. If you knew me... You would know that I am divorced. It is not against my religion to be divorced. Marriage is sacred to the LDS church and although I may not align in belief everything that they say, the LDS church has been a huge foundation for me. Do not defile that which you do not understand. I'd like to call you out anonymous, put a name behind this mask you hide and like the rest of us on here, come on out. If you're so brave, give me something to work with because I really can't take anything you say at face value.
annie said…
Oh, internet, you make anonymity so easy. Maybe you're good friends with Ruby and don't want to rupture any friendship with her by condescendingly telling her that she shouldn't base decisions on her feelings alone. Or maybe you're a random person and you don't feel strongly enough about your feelings to put a name behind it. I don't know, but it's hard to take "Anonymous" seriously.

I know Ruby, so I know she didn't come to this decision lightly. I think her being able to come up with her own opinion on this matter shows a lot more thought process than just listening to what the church preaches and taking it as the only option. I'm not saying that believing what the church teaches is wrong, I'm saying come up with that conclusion on your own.

And seriously, can we stop with the argument that if gay people can get married we're then going to want to marry animals and robots. MY GOODNESS. Even if that were the logical next step (and I assure you, it's not), that doesn't mean a WHOLE GROUP OF AMERICAN CITIZENS shouldn't be allowed basic rights. Stop people from marrying their pets when that becomes an issue. Do what's RIGHT, not what's going to save you trouble in the future.
Anonymous said…
I don't understand people who claim to be christians (or mormons) can arrive at a conclusion where they call something that their religion calls bad, a good thing. The condescension you sense here is not directed at your feelings but at your purporting to align your feelings with your faith (even though it's clear your feelings are trumping your faith).

On a certain level, I can respect the bigots holding fast to the teachings of their religion and somehow extending that to massive governmental control... I have a hard time respecting the practice of touting a religion and then living apart from it. It's one thing to say I'm Mormon, Muslim, Christian, but everyone isn't and God/Allah/Jesus' government isn't for everyone (right now).

I take issue with all supposed religious folks who hold onto bits and pieces of their religion to fit in better with society. Why not just choose to be nonreligious? I know a supposed Christian girl who says homosexuality wasn't talked about in the Bible because there is no Greek word for it. LOL! What a silly conversation that was. My point to her & you isn't that you need to follow what the faith you purport you follow says, but to ask you to examine why you bother trying to make thoughts & feelings mesh with what's been written in the letter of faith that you claim you follow?

The christian bible talks about divine revelations and how they should be tested through scripture. That's how I know any type of revelation (or feeling) reached thru prayer this supposed Space Fairy father of Jesus that doesn't end in something that lines up with what has already been written doesn't come from him. That's what the bible that YOUR religion uses says. (or maybe the Bible is wrong there too. Maybe Mr. Smith wrote something else that trumps that Biblical teaching.)
Anonymous said…
"If you knew me you would know I was divorced" Your point? Just because you are something (i.e. divorced) and are allowed to stay in your church it doesn't mean your faith doesn't consider it in general to be an unfavorable situation.

Your church is not anti-divorce. So what does that mean? They don't kick the divorced people out. Divorce is not considered a good thing in your faith and it is not promoted.
Singleness is a good thing in christianity.
Marriage is a good thing in christianity.
Divorce is not.

Child bearing is a good thing in christianity.
There are certain constraints around it. The good ways to child-bear are in a marriage.
Sex is a good thing in christianity. There are restraints around it. Does that mean that your church is anti- "illegitimate" (stupid term) children? No. Rhetoric. Dig deeper.

Look at all the fat people in church. I'm sure 2/3 of the people in church like those outside of church in America are overweight and/or obese. The church isn't kicking them out. So is the church pro-gluttony?? (Yeah, yeah medical issues)
annie said…
So your issue here is that she -- and other people -- say they're Mormon (or Christian or whatever) but then go against that by believing things other than what the church teaches?

Is that correct?
Anonymous said…
Regardless of what the media (and thus everyone else) calls it, this isn't an equality issue. Every man has the right to marry one unmarried woman. No man has a right that the next doesn't. It's a governmental control issue. Calling it an equality issue is just using easy inflammatory rhetoric.

From a sexism standpoint it can be viewed as an equality sort of thing: every man has the right that no woman has, to marry a woman. (But no one talks of this.)

Who I am is unimportant. Yeah, the "If I'm so brave" challenge is *not* accepted. (I'm no Barney Stinson).

For what it is worth, I can tell you have a good heart and I think you are better than inconsistent logic. Your feelings and faith don't mesh here. One trumps the LETTER of the other. The LDS was a foundation. Doesn't mean you have to carry on associating with them. And for what it's worth, I don't consider anyone's faith to be based on feelings. I think faith and feelings are different things.

I just want you to think about this and be consistent and unwaveringly resolute in your beliefs that the government shouldn't be denying rights to any 2 consenting (nonrelated) adults.

I hold an unpopular opinion that divorce shouldn't be easy. (Yeah, yeah, it's supposedly not easy & I wouldn't know because I'm not divorced)And I think legal remarriage (where companies/the government has to grant full rights again) after divorce should be even more difficult. Divorce is economically costly and historically bad for women and children. And it happens too much.

I don't mind holding offensive opinions. I come from a largely religious family. My political views & disdain for inconsistencies in life-living and religion following often cause heated discourse. Lots of divorcees, lots of after-church pig-outs at buffets, lots of remarried folks, lots of single parents and non-married sex-having and cohabitation in this 'religious' family. Often, religion is a largely unnecessary jail.

Just be consistent. Good day.
annie said…
It is an equal rights issue. You just said it was, so I'm not sure why you say that it's something the media is shoving down our throats.

If a man can do something legally that a woman can't, then that's not equal -- you made this point. That being said, a gay man cannot marry the person he loves, a straight man can. That is not equal. I just want to make that clear.

It seems you understand this and are arguing for argument's sake -- and you're being wordy and vague. That drives me insane, but that's not the point.

The point is that if someone wants to marry the person they love, they should be allowed -- regardless of their private parts.
Aaron said…
(I haven't read all this dialogue with the anonymous contributor. The following reflects my thoughts as of yesterday's conversation.)

For obvious reasons, this issue is very important to discuss. First of all, I would like to commend anyone for standing up for what they believe in though the beliefs may be unpopular or against what you grew up with. Ruby, I'm very proud to have a friend like you. You're a loving friend, daughter, sister, and mother and your passion is inspiring.

I agree that it is important to always question why you believe what you believe, rather than assume it is true because it has been taught to you by someone you respect and trust. Question how equal rights for those in the LGBT community will affect YOUR life. From my perspective, it will make more people happy, increase pride, and create more opportunities for loving environments for children. It will decrease depression that results from this inequality. It will decrease the shame, identity confusion, and even suicides and homicides.

I know that those who wish to engage in same sex relationships and same sex marriages WILL win this fight, likely in my lifetime. However, I don't doubt that they will continue to struggle with persecution and discrimination long after that. But it raises the question: do you want to be able to say that you supported this fight, this movement, or be part of the group who is later viewed as "wrong" and "a product of their time"? Moreover, why would you believe that people were wrong when it comes to racism, but not equal rights for LGBT? I agree with Annie. If the system has flaws, CHANGE THE SYSTEM. It may never be perfect, but it can be changed. There are those who say "Our system is flawed, but it's the only one we have" and those who say "Our system is flawed. What are we doing, you guys?! THIS is what's wrong and THIS is how we can fix it." I'm not going to act like I fall in the latter camp, but this is how change begins. It has to start somewhere. It starts with YOU. As future generations add support to equal rights and the older way of thinking diminishes, things will change. They already are!

This brings me to my next point. I understand that people are products of their culture. Most of us are in some way negatively. Many of us are overweight, lazy; we think that 30 seconds for a webpage to load is slow, etc. But let's not fall victim to our culture in terms of views on equal rights. That being said, I know it's hard to speak out against what you've been taught and what your family and/or church believes. It causes guilt, confusion, the threat of ostracism and alienation or even excommunication. But you're not alone. You may really believe these things, but you don't have to be scared to at least question. Last point: why can't marriage itself be sacred, rather than marriage between a man and a woman? Is it because same sex couples can't procreate? Is that how they threaten the integrity of our country? Lots of heterosexual couples choose not to procreate. Are they devaluing the sanctity of marriage? I just don't get it. The world is changing. Couples and families are different than they used to be. I don't see it as something to be afraid of.

"No freedom until we're equal."

P.S. Brianna, I hope to meet you someday!
Kara said…
I think Anonymous brings up a good point--to say that your a member of a the church and we're told as members to follow and support the prophet and the teachings which include marriage being ordained between a man and a woman, how do you just decide to follow some teachings but not others, even when we've been told to support marriage between a man and woman? I'm just trying to understand this. I think you are great Ruby and you've taught me so much through your other posts, but I'm just confused about this one I guess.
Ruby said…
I'm not arguing that marriage isn't between a man and a woman. However, when it comes to civil unions- the legality behind it has shown that they're denied basic federal benefits that are given to heterosexual married couples. If they were not denied these basic needs, then I would stick with the argument as I have in the past. I always stood by the church on same sex marriage. However, everyone should have the same basic rights under the law. We're advised in our church about certain things but ultimately the church stays out of our political opinions. This is where agency and freedom to choose come in. I have done my research. I have pondered this many, many times. I have not come to this decision lightly. I firmly believe that agency comes from Heavenly Father. I can't tell others how to live (within reason and if they're not harming themselves our others physically). I believe the gospel to be true but I have my reservations in following everything they say without having to ask myself. The church says one thing and my political ideas says another. Confusing right? Kara- this is a complex issue for me. For everyone. This didn't become a personal issue until people that I dearly love came into the picture. I see they honor each other. I see their love for each other. Does it feel wrong to me? Not anymore. Not when it's this close to home. I strongly, strongly believe in separation of church and state. I can't let my own religious dogma rule the lives of other people. Just like I don't want others to impose their beliefs on me, I refuse to impose my beliefs on them. I have always separated religion from politics because I want to make sure I am making a nonbiased decision. I can acknowledge that we all have biases. But I am working my hardest to be open minded and not just doing it for the sake to be difficult. I am doing it so we can provide a good life for future generations. Too many issues where the church was involved with homosexuals make me sick. You can't just "fix" a gay person. They are real and have real feelings and emotions. To ask them to live their life according to MY gospel that they don't believe in is wrong. Just as if we (Mormons) were asked to stop with polygamous practices even though back in the day it was a lifestyle choice for them. Oh wait, we were asked to stop being polygamous in order for Utah to become accepted into the United States. If the U.S. had not asked that I wonder if we would still have polygamy?? Others feared what polygamy would do to the country and the people practicing it believed it would come back one day. Times have changed. Social issues have changed. Yet, it remains the same that every person is equal under the law and should be treated such regardless of sex, sexual orientation, race, etc. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. I am just trying to explain how I have come to my conclusion.

Anonymous said…
This:

"They will be teaching homosexual relationships in schools, that gays are okay, then they will want to be married in our TEMPLES. I can still love them but not accept their way of life. They already get civil unions. What more do they want? Why are you giving in to them? If you align yourself with this then you are denying church doctrine. You are denying God and you are denying TRUTH. I love you Rubs, I really do. But I'm sad for you."

This is what is really, really, really sad.

This is such a condescending message in so many levels.

First, homosexuals are people, too. You talk about "them" and "they" as if they are somehow less deserving of you. It sounds much like civil right talk.

Second, homosexuality SHOULD be taught in schools. Absolutely. WHY? Because avoiding it is ignorant. You can't just sweep something under the rug and hope it just goes away. "It/homosexuality" will never ever ever go away. This is a reality. Your neighbors, store clerks, successful business execs, community workers, and even your political figures might be gay... they will be apart of your community whether you like it or not and unless we can talk about about and approach it with a more understanding tone, it will be fueled by prejudices, anger and hatred and the divide will only get bigger an bigger.

I'd like to disagree with you and say that "gays" actually are "okay". Non of my gay friends think they're not "okay"... actually, they think that they are exactly who they should be... and the probably feel so liberated and free when they finally realized that they were in fact OKAY and that it's OKAY to no longer hide in shame and fear of rejection. For someone like you and I to say that they are "not okay" when we have NO IDEA what it must be like is just not fair. At all.

And I also don't think it's fair that we use intimidation in our disagreements. When you use forceful words like "denying church doctrine" you are using fear tactics. If Ruby doesn't agree with you or the church's EXACT stance on something, she is somehow falling off the deep end, believing apostate philosophies, and making YOU concerned for her eternal salvation.

This. Is. Sad.

What I have come to learn is that we ALL have been given a fine intellect and the gift of agency. What a beautiful blessing this is. This is the whole point, right? AGENCY.

And in no where does gay people marrying mean they'd be above the law... actually I think it's about being on par with the law. Partaking of the same rights that every one else does.

Jacy

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